Ok, so the two main topics that got brought up last night are Dice Pool caps and Essence Pool calculations.
DICE POOL ADDING MAX
A proposed option was Ability+(Essence/2). I find this favorable.
ESSENCE POOL CALCULATIONS
I did a lot of running numbers for this one. I'll go ahead and show what I've got.
Here's the numbers for various Exalt types (with no changes, note Solars and Abyssals have the same mote pool sizes, these numbers assume Breeding 5 for DBs).
Solars: Personal (Essencex3)+Will; Peripheral (Essencex7)+Will+(sum of all Virtues)
Lunars: Personal Essence+(Willx2); Peripheral (Essencex4)+(Willx2)+(highest Virtuex4)
Sidereal: Personal Essencex2+Will; Peripheral (Essencex6)+Will+(sum of all virtues)
Terrestrial: Personal Essence+Willpower+5; Peripheral (Essencex4)+Will+(sum of 2 highest virtues)+9
For someone with my current stats and Breeding 5 (rather than my 6, which is merited up :P) we get the following numbers for each Exalt type, for a sense of scale:
Solar: Personal 30, Peripheral 71; Total 101
Lunar: Personal 25, Peripheral 62; Total 87
Sidereal: Personal 23, Peripheral 64; Total 87
DragonBlooded: Personal 21; Peripheral 54; Total 75
Clearly DB's are behind. I tried a few different mods out and the best one that I found is as follows:
DragonBlooded: Personal (Essence+Willpower+5[breeding]); Peripheral (Essencex5)+Willpower+(sum of 3 highest virtues)+9[breeding]
For a character with the same stats as used above this comes out to this:
DragonBlooded: Personal 21; Peripheral 64; Total 85
Basically this hops up the Essence contribution to the Peripheral calculation by a notch and adds in one more virtue to the calculation (for this character only 3 more, but could be 1-5). This more-or-less meets up with Lunar and Sidereal calculations depending on exact stats. I like the flavor that their personal pools are bound to bit a bit smaller than the others while their peripheral pools should be about the same or higher. This means that they're forced to anima flare more often by a small amount, which is flavorful.
EXP CHART
Here also was the rough EXP table we worked out for Celestial Dragon specific stuff last night (please correct me if I am wrong):
Terrestrial Charms (Favored or Aspect): 9xp
Terrestrial Charms boosted to Celestial level (ie: restrictions removed): 11xp
Terrestrial Charms (non-Favored/Aspect): 11xp
Terrestrial MA Charms (if all Immaculate Styles are mastered): 8xp
Celestial MA Charms: 10xp
Sidereal MA Charms: 12xp
ANIMAS
Celestial Dragons are able to display any of the 5 Terrestrial Anima Banners. I assume this affect is dependent upon mastering the relevant Immaculate Style. Only one anima banner can be displayed/active at a time.
ABILITIES
This does not alter Aspect abilities, which are the same as they originally were. One point that may be worth bringing up, though, is whether or not Celestial Dragons gain an additional Favored Ability (as Sidereals have 4).
It has been acknowledged that we are no longer merely DragonBlooded. Many of the above changes are already in place.
The Essence Pool change I see as being only fair. It helps to ensure that a Celestial Dragon has a similar staying power to other Celestial Exalts.
The dice pool change is sort of 50/50. Strictly speaking every other Celestial Exalt has more ability to spend Essence in order to succeed than a Celestial Dragon, even with the changes listed above. Solars simply have a naturally high dice adding cap. A Lunar who has activated Relentless Lunar Fury (or the mental or social equivalents, both of which exist [The social one is called Irresistable Silver Spirit, I can't remember the name of the mental one, its an Int charm though]) has, for maxed out numbers, the same dice adding cap as a Solar does, even if it is somewhat more difficult to maintain. A Sidereal has the lowest dice-adding cap, at just Essence dice, but their rules allow them to add more successes than other Exalt types, as they can add Essence successes (others usually only get half their dice adding cap). Additionally, Sidereal access to the Auspicious Excellency enables them to potentially turn an entire dice pool into successes, negating the need to roll at all. While this is, strictly speaking, less in the way of successes than a Solar could potentially do at the same level, it is also MUCH MUCH cheaper, at only like 4m and 1wp compared to the 2m/success a Solar would have to spend (and then still roll dice).
Allowing a Celestial Dragon to add half their Essence to their dice adding cap is actually much less than other Celestial Exalts are able to do and, for some Essence values (ie: less than 5 Essence) is actually worse than the base DragonBlooded Ability+Specialty adder, though it is more broad.
We might want to consider something similar to the Lunar mechanic even. Keep the cap at Ability, but have a set of charms that 'bring you in to focus' and allow you to activate up to Essence more dice or something. Form-type charms are the most immediate candidates, but they're also largely inappropriate for Social and Mental oriented abilities (practicing a kata while trying to sweet talk that cute girl in to bed with you is sort of stupid). Just another option based on previously-existing mechanics.
The Essence Pool change I see as being only fair. It helps to ensure that a Celestial Dragon has a similar staying power to other Celestial Exalts.
The dice pool change is sort of 50/50. Strictly speaking every other Celestial Exalt has more ability to spend Essence in order to succeed than a Celestial Dragon, even with the changes listed above. Solars simply have a naturally high dice adding cap. A Lunar who has activated Relentless Lunar Fury (or the mental or social equivalents, both of which exist [The social one is called Irresistable Silver Spirit, I can't remember the name of the mental one, its an Int charm though]) has, for maxed out numbers, the same dice adding cap as a Solar does, even if it is somewhat more difficult to maintain. A Sidereal has the lowest dice-adding cap, at just Essence dice, but their rules allow them to add more successes than other Exalt types, as they can add Essence successes (others usually only get half their dice adding cap). Additionally, Sidereal access to the Auspicious Excellency enables them to potentially turn an entire dice pool into successes, negating the need to roll at all. While this is, strictly speaking, less in the way of successes than a Solar could potentially do at the same level, it is also MUCH MUCH cheaper, at only like 4m and 1wp compared to the 2m/success a Solar would have to spend (and then still roll dice).
Allowing a Celestial Dragon to add half their Essence to their dice adding cap is actually much less than other Celestial Exalts are able to do and, for some Essence values (ie: less than 5 Essence) is actually worse than the base DragonBlooded Ability+Specialty adder, though it is more broad.
We might want to consider something similar to the Lunar mechanic even. Keep the cap at Ability, but have a set of charms that 'bring you in to focus' and allow you to activate up to Essence more dice or something. Form-type charms are the most immediate candidates, but they're also largely inappropriate for Social and Mental oriented abilities (practicing a kata while trying to sweet talk that cute girl in to bed with you is sort of stupid). Just another option based on previously-existing mechanics.
first thanks for doing this work.
second, i think the idea of a set of "fury" charms would be good. avatar state or something. feel free to toss out ideas.
as far as essence caps go... not sure there. their excellency is less expensive, and their charms are for the most part also less expensive. they have some cool advantages... not sure they need the extra essence actually.
second, i think the idea of a set of "fury" charms would be good. avatar state or something. feel free to toss out ideas.
as far as essence caps go... not sure there. their excellency is less expensive, and their charms are for the most part also less expensive. they have some cool advantages... not sure they need the extra essence actually.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
Just to revisit this topic:
I think the additional Essence pool is needed for MA charms if nothing else. Celestial MA charms operate at the same (or slightly lower, actually) level as basic Celestial charms in terms of efficiency, and the extra pool is needed for that reason. Additional, as currently written, Celestial Dragons have no Essence recovery charms. Though we could conceivably invent some.
I think the additional Essence pool is needed for MA charms if nothing else. Celestial MA charms operate at the same (or slightly lower, actually) level as basic Celestial charms in terms of efficiency, and the extra pool is needed for that reason. Additional, as currently written, Celestial Dragons have no Essence recovery charms. Though we could conceivably invent some.
i thought some of the lore charms allowed regain while standing in their given element...
yeah, i'm fine with the proposed essence. there should be some sort of "avatar state" charm, it would probably add specialties into the calculation.
Terrestrial Charms (Favored or Aspect): 8xp
Terrestrial Charms boosted to Celestial level (ie: restrictions removed): +2xp
Terrestrial Charms (non-Favored/Aspect): 10xp
Terrestrial elemental MA Charms (if a related Immaculate Style is mastered): 6xp (8 if MA not favored)
Terrestrial non-elemental MA Charms 8 (10 non-favored)
Celestial MA Charms: 10xp (12 if non-favored)
Sidereal MA Charms: 12xp (14 if non-favored)
i'm also thinking of allowing lore as a substitute path to celestial dragon mastery. this doesn't effect you guys, but just a system note if you want to make more like you. you may also be able to streamline the process now that you've done it yourselves, so that it doesn't require such extreme effort and essence.
yeah, i'm fine with the proposed essence. there should be some sort of "avatar state" charm, it would probably add specialties into the calculation.
Terrestrial Charms (Favored or Aspect): 8xp
Terrestrial Charms boosted to Celestial level (ie: restrictions removed): +2xp
Terrestrial Charms (non-Favored/Aspect): 10xp
Terrestrial elemental MA Charms (if a related Immaculate Style is mastered): 6xp (8 if MA not favored)
Terrestrial non-elemental MA Charms 8 (10 non-favored)
Celestial MA Charms: 10xp (12 if non-favored)
Sidereal MA Charms: 12xp (14 if non-favored)
i'm also thinking of allowing lore as a substitute path to celestial dragon mastery. this doesn't effect you guys, but just a system note if you want to make more like you. you may also be able to streamline the process now that you've done it yourselves, so that it doesn't require such extreme effort and essence.
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
Yes, Elemental Empowerment Meditation allows you to regain (Lore) motes per WP spent when you're immersed in your element of choice. This is not really an in-combat option for mote regeneration.
It doesn't really measure up to Joy in Adversity Stance (Sidereal), Might-Bolstering Blow (Lunar), Ravaging Mouth of (Ability) (Abyssal), or Essence-Gathering Temper (Solar) for mote regen purposes though.
It doesn't really measure up to Joy in Adversity Stance (Sidereal), Might-Bolstering Blow (Lunar), Ravaging Mouth of (Ability) (Abyssal), or Essence-Gathering Temper (Solar) for mote regen purposes though.
Ah, Jade Cruicible Method is also a decent mote regeneration charm if you've got access to Wood Dragon Form, which we do. Its not really good for combat use, because it takes a while to recover from, but I've determine that its bascially required for me to use it if I want to do all my buffing pre-combat (like before a big battle or something), since I don't actually have enough motes to activate everything otherwise.
when i first thought this up, i wasn't sure that there would ever be others like you, or sure on what i wanted these exalt types to do/be/have.
now that i know a bit more, and now that they have a firmer place in the cosmology, i plan to change a few things.
i will be adding rules updates on xp costs, anima banners, charms, dice adders, and other stuff.
anyone have any suggestions desires before i start?
now that i know a bit more, and now that they have a firmer place in the cosmology, i plan to change a few things.
i will be adding rules updates on xp costs, anima banners, charms, dice adders, and other stuff.
anyone have any suggestions desires before i start?
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
First changes:
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Anima banner
as per aspect anima banner. characters have access to only a single anima, unless other charms are purchased that allow for more.
further, the character is resistant to the elements while her anima is flaring, soaking elemental damage =essence. this soak applies even against directed attacks.
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Charms
Gaians have access to second circle sorcery and necro. they may access all forms of MA, though they pay increased costs for them as normal.
Dragonblooded charms are Lesser Elemental Charms. They are purchased at a reduced price.
Celestial martial arts, and Greater Elemental Charms are purchased at standard charm cost. GEC's are celestial level charms; these may either be LEC's with limiting clauses such as "ineffective against those with higher essence than the user" removed, or other celestial level effects that call upon the elements. All GEC's should be within the elemental theme, either manipulating the elements, or symbolically expressing them. GEC's may draw upon multiple elements, as opposed to a single element.
There is no cross-element surcharge for charm usage.
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Skills & Backgrounds
Gaians receive 4 favored abilities at character creation.
Gaians recieve the standard Dragonblooded allotment for bg's and skills appropriate to their backstory.
Breeding is not applicable to Gaians.
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Virtues
Gaians may increase virtues to no greater than 4 without the use of bonus pts.
Gaian exaltations are attracted to those of great virtue, and must have one of their preferred virtues at 4 at character creation:
Water: Compassion & Temperance
Earth: Temperance & Conviction
Fire: Conviction & Valor
Air: Valor & Compassion
Wood: Any
Exaltation occurs during a moment in which their primary virtue is being channeled.
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other stuff
i'm waiting to see what happens with the xp on siddies/lunars before i set xp costs. for now, what i wrote last still stands.
dice adders... i think ability + 1/2 essence is a bit low. not sure what to do on it though. i still like specialties factoring in somehow as well.
those that exalt appear to be db's early on, and if born in the realm might even assume themselves to be normal db's. But they are strange, in that they generally express all the elements in small ways, as opposed to only their given aspect, and in that they grow in ability much more quickly.
)))))))))))
)))))))))))
Anima banner
as per aspect anima banner. characters have access to only a single anima, unless other charms are purchased that allow for more.
further, the character is resistant to the elements while her anima is flaring, soaking elemental damage =essence. this soak applies even against directed attacks.
))))))))))
))))))))))
Charms
Gaians have access to second circle sorcery and necro. they may access all forms of MA, though they pay increased costs for them as normal.
Dragonblooded charms are Lesser Elemental Charms. They are purchased at a reduced price.
Celestial martial arts, and Greater Elemental Charms are purchased at standard charm cost. GEC's are celestial level charms; these may either be LEC's with limiting clauses such as "ineffective against those with higher essence than the user" removed, or other celestial level effects that call upon the elements. All GEC's should be within the elemental theme, either manipulating the elements, or symbolically expressing them. GEC's may draw upon multiple elements, as opposed to a single element.
There is no cross-element surcharge for charm usage.
))))))))))
))))))))))
Skills & Backgrounds
Gaians receive 4 favored abilities at character creation.
Gaians recieve the standard Dragonblooded allotment for bg's and skills appropriate to their backstory.
Breeding is not applicable to Gaians.
))))))))))
))))))))))
Virtues
Gaians may increase virtues to no greater than 4 without the use of bonus pts.
Gaian exaltations are attracted to those of great virtue, and must have one of their preferred virtues at 4 at character creation:
Water: Compassion & Temperance
Earth: Temperance & Conviction
Fire: Conviction & Valor
Air: Valor & Compassion
Wood: Any
Exaltation occurs during a moment in which their primary virtue is being channeled.
)))))))))))
)))))))))))
other stuff
i'm waiting to see what happens with the xp on siddies/lunars before i set xp costs. for now, what i wrote last still stands.
dice adders... i think ability + 1/2 essence is a bit low. not sure what to do on it though. i still like specialties factoring in somehow as well.
those that exalt appear to be db's early on, and if born in the realm might even assume themselves to be normal db's. But they are strange, in that they generally express all the elements in small ways, as opposed to only their given aspect, and in that they grow in ability much more quickly.
)))))))))))
Threading the Gerbil since 1982
Dice adder cap could be Ability+Essence directly? Maybe Ability+Essence+Specialty? I feel the later is a bit strong as it will exceed the Solar cap in the post-Essence5 game.
Maybe Ability+Specialty+Highest Virtue (max of 5, fuck the paragon merit for dice-adder caps)? This would provide a maximum cap of 13 at Essence 5 (and lower), 15 at Essence 7, and 18 at Essence 10. This keeps them roughly on par with Solars until the extreme late game when they do fall a bit behind to Solar Excellence.
Edit: Something else I thought of, Essence pool calculations? I would suggest including all 4 virtues instead of highest 3 (or at least the benefit of 4 virtues), as I suggested above. Might also want to readjust the calculations to remove the static values provided by using the maximum breeding formula. This can probably be done by simply increasing the contribution of other stats.
From the first post in the thread, here are the numbers for all exalt types currently:
Solars: Personal (Essencex3)+Will; Peripheral (Essencex7)+Will+(sum of all Virtues)
Lunars: Personal Essence+(Willx2); Peripheral (Essencex4)+(Willx2)+(highest Virtuex4)
Sidereal: Personal Essencex2+Will; Peripheral (Essencex6)+Will+(sum of all virtues)
Terrestrial: Personal Essence+Willpower+5; Peripheral (Essencex4)+Will+(sum of 2 highest virtues)+9
My first proposal was the following:
Gaian: Personal (Essence+Willpower+5[breeding]); Peripheral (Essencex5)+Willpower+(sum of 3 highest virtues)+9[breeding]
I submit that this should be revised to the following:
Gaian: Personal (Essence+Willpower+high virtue); Peripheral (Essencex5)+(Willpowerx2)+(sum of 2 high virtuesx2)
This does a few things. First it makes them slightly more dependant on their high virtue and they're greatly benefitted by having one more high. It means that in general they're going to have essence pools roughly on par with Sidereals, depending on exact stats. Adding WP into the peripheral calculation again also compensates for the removal of the Breeding background from the calculation.
Lets see it in action. For the following numbers we'll assume Essence 7, Willpower 9, high virtue 5 secondary at 4 and both others at 2 (roughly where our Gaian characters are):
Solars: Personal 30; Peripheral 71; Total 101
Lunars: Personal 25; Peripheral 66; Total 91
Sidereal: Personal 23; Peripheral 64; Total 87
Gaian: Personal 21; Peripheral 71; Total 92
Terrestrial: Personal 21; Peripheral 55; Total 76
Lets see it now for a roughly starting character. Essence 3, Willpower 7, high virtue 4, secondary at 3, one at 2 and one at 1
Solars: Personal 16; Peripheral 38; Total 54
Lunars: Personal 17; Peripheral 42; Total 59
Sidereal: Personal 13; Peripheral 35; Total 48
Gaian: Personal 14; Peripheral 43; Total 57
Terrestrial: Personal 15; Peripheral 35; Total 50
Maybe Ability+Specialty+Highest Virtue (max of 5, fuck the paragon merit for dice-adder caps)? This would provide a maximum cap of 13 at Essence 5 (and lower), 15 at Essence 7, and 18 at Essence 10. This keeps them roughly on par with Solars until the extreme late game when they do fall a bit behind to Solar Excellence.
Edit: Something else I thought of, Essence pool calculations? I would suggest including all 4 virtues instead of highest 3 (or at least the benefit of 4 virtues), as I suggested above. Might also want to readjust the calculations to remove the static values provided by using the maximum breeding formula. This can probably be done by simply increasing the contribution of other stats.
From the first post in the thread, here are the numbers for all exalt types currently:
Solars: Personal (Essencex3)+Will; Peripheral (Essencex7)+Will+(sum of all Virtues)
Lunars: Personal Essence+(Willx2); Peripheral (Essencex4)+(Willx2)+(highest Virtuex4)
Sidereal: Personal Essencex2+Will; Peripheral (Essencex6)+Will+(sum of all virtues)
Terrestrial: Personal Essence+Willpower+5; Peripheral (Essencex4)+Will+(sum of 2 highest virtues)+9
My first proposal was the following:
Gaian: Personal (Essence+Willpower+5[breeding]); Peripheral (Essencex5)+Willpower+(sum of 3 highest virtues)+9[breeding]
I submit that this should be revised to the following:
Gaian: Personal (Essence+Willpower+high virtue); Peripheral (Essencex5)+(Willpowerx2)+(sum of 2 high virtuesx2)
This does a few things. First it makes them slightly more dependant on their high virtue and they're greatly benefitted by having one more high. It means that in general they're going to have essence pools roughly on par with Sidereals, depending on exact stats. Adding WP into the peripheral calculation again also compensates for the removal of the Breeding background from the calculation.
Lets see it in action. For the following numbers we'll assume Essence 7, Willpower 9, high virtue 5 secondary at 4 and both others at 2 (roughly where our Gaian characters are):
Solars: Personal 30; Peripheral 71; Total 101
Lunars: Personal 25; Peripheral 66; Total 91
Sidereal: Personal 23; Peripheral 64; Total 87
Gaian: Personal 21; Peripheral 71; Total 92
Terrestrial: Personal 21; Peripheral 55; Total 76
Lets see it now for a roughly starting character. Essence 3, Willpower 7, high virtue 4, secondary at 3, one at 2 and one at 1
Solars: Personal 16; Peripheral 38; Total 54
Lunars: Personal 17; Peripheral 42; Total 59
Sidereal: Personal 13; Peripheral 35; Total 48
Gaian: Personal 14; Peripheral 43; Total 57
Terrestrial: Personal 15; Peripheral 35; Total 50